A grammar dilemma
July 6th 2008 22:24
This clip is for the grammar mavens within us. In the British quiz show QI (Quite Interesting), Stephen Fry (Blackadder and Wilde) and his permanent cohort Alan Davies demonstrate one of those back and forth arguments that could continue for a long time.
Do we accept language has changed and may not be ‘correct’ in the way that we learnt grammar rules at school, but work well on a colloquial level? Or do we strive to remain loyal to its ‘correct’ English foundation? If we do not remain pedantic about English usage will it lead to language deterioration?
It is undeniable that the English language has transformed and will continue to alter over time and it is common to hear the phrase, ‘none of them work’. Yet, is that OK?
Stephen demonstrates this dilemma well with his usual clever, swift wit. Prominently articulate while raising the issue, it’s a good laugh.
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Comment by tlcorbin
Coffee Quip
Comment by Michaelie
Flick Wit
OK, I see both sides of this. One the one hand, I do think that we have to let language evolve and not be mirthless pedants. After all, what we consider to be correct language now wasn't always so. So although it stands out still, I'm prepared to forgive 'none of them work', because I think 'none' has taken on its own layers of meaning beyond being a contraction of 'not one'.
But 'she will come with you and I' I can't let pass yet - that really is just poor grammar, and doesn't come from evolution of language since if we take 'you' out of the sentence, we wouldn't say 'she will come with I'. So I shall be a stickler with that one.
Great post.
Mich
Comment by Cibbuano
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That being said, I would definitely say 'None of them work'. Shee...
Comment by Mr Nice Guy
Pop Culturist
Pop Rock Factory
Comment by Mountain Fog
Infognito
QUOTE ME NO QUOTES!
I don't see the problem with "none of them work", (now I know why Michaelie never comments on my long winded writings...duh!! )
not one of them work, it sounds as if the "them" is the problem to me, maybe "none of them are working" is correct...??.
Sorry, my pooter cannot play the video, so you will have to hold up "flash cards" or something, so I can... "get it!" hehe!
cheers
fog
P.S. And I agree, it is usage that causes language to change and contractions, like "blood oath", which became the vulgarity "bloody" (I think, have distant memories of this in class)
Comment by Keith Daw
Diamond III
But I also subscribe to the adage, "there's a time an place for everything."
There's short, sweet, SMS/IM style communication...sometimes the abbreviations serve a purpose, but it shouldn't overtake common sense.
Writing for effect (e.g. poetry, lyrics, prose) can give the author liberties that would make a professor cringe, but if it makes a statement, then it serves a purpose.
I agree on the "...and I" statement, however. That's simply laziness in my book.
Ciao!
Comment by Tracy
Movies and Life
Thanks for all your comments. I'll be back later to answer properly but it's an interesting one isn't it? It's not easy to answer...
A personal one that makes me shudder is 'it will come good'.
I think it's natural that language will evolve, especially as technology changes, with its primary emphasis on immediacy and convenience but if it alters too drastically it is concerning. For example, I was reading a blog the other day (not Orble) and the language was completely abbreviated, numerals were used instead of letters and they were generally almost indecipherable. I can see how some modifications are helpful with some mediums, in particular with texts, where a message just needs to be quick, but it seemed unnecessary in a blog where a person could easily type the message using usual English. But again, the emphasis is on immediacy.
But what if language becomes so distorted only subsets can understand and use it and basic skills are lost? The impact in a person’s life would be huge, work wise, personally etc.
I'm not saying all language changes are negative otherwise we would still be using 'ye' and 'thou', but I personally would not like to see a drastic decline.
I’m no expert but it does have me thinking...
Tracy
PS Did you know the ’10 items or less’ sign in a supermarket is grammatically incorrect? It should be ’fewer’ not ‘less’. When I learnt that I felt guilty about joining those queues...
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
I can see why some are willing to let that one go but I'm with Michaelie on "she will come with you and I". No way, that one is getting through.
Cib, that example you gave is a crack up. "When are u coming 4 it"? Big boy. haha.
Comment by Tracy
Movies and Life
Another one that really irks me is 'cu l8r'. How does chopping three letters from the word 'later' make that big a deal to anyone? It takes the same amount of time to read it...
I can only shake my head...
And yes, I'm pretty sure I've said 'none of them work'..eek, call the language police!! Handcuff me!!
Tracy
Comment by Michaelie
Flick Wit
I do so comment on some of your posts! And will be back again today to prove it!
But I was saying that I think the evolution of language DOES allow 'none of them work' now, even though it still stands out as incorrect to me, because 'none' has taken on more meaning than as just a contraction. So I am also OK with 'none of them are working' though the correct grammar would be 'none of them IS working'.
See you soon Fog!
Michaelie
Comment by Mountain Fog
Infognito
QUOTE ME NO QUOTES!
But I still have a problem with it;
why would it not be correct to also say, "none of them ARE working"?
Doesn't the inference of a plural, by the word "them" mean one can use either "is" or "are"? One says, 'they are', not 'they is', or am I wrong about that too?
I was never great on the technical usage of my language, but have been looking at a basic text in recent times to try and learn more! All those subjunctives and whatnot, I never could grasp it all, so 'turned off' at school. Nasty teachers didn't help of course!
Anyhoo, I do like writing creatively and do want to be literate, and grammatically correct, so I appreciate learning from others in this area!!
cheers
fog
P.S.
Sorry Trace de Face, I am being rude using your site to communicate with another Orbler!!
P.P.S. On Topic: What gets my goat, is hearing people dropping the suffix, particularly "ly"
For example, "He did it fantastic!"
Instead of, "He did it fantastically well!"
Hmm..maybe I am wrong there too... totally doubting myself now... oh well..
Comment by Michaelie
Flick Wit
'None of them are working' is incorrect, not because of the 'them', because although the 'them' is plural, it is the 'one' of 'them' you are referring to.
For example, if you use 'none' without being contracted, ie 'not one', you will see what does and doesn't make grammatical sense:
Incorrect - 'Not one of them are working.'
Correct - 'Not one of them is working.'
But as I was saying, I do think 'none' has come to have a meaning of its own in modern times, even though it really is short for 'not one'.
What text have you been having a read of? I have always found language to be fascinating.
Michaelie
Comment by Janet Collins
Acceptable Etiquette
The Social Critic
Janet Collins Blog
My pet hate these days is the word "like". How many "likes" can anyone sprinkle in a sentence?
Janet
Comment by Lara M
Love Speaks
Food Slate
Like Michaelie, I too find language fascinating...and at times perplexing
Comment by Mountain Fog
Infognito
QUOTE ME NO QUOTES!
the text is just a basic primer for students, but, I also have the 'Holy Grail" of punctuation lovers, that being, the Lynne Truss book, "Eats Shoots & Leaves".
I love it, she is really quirky and fun.
cheers
fog
Comment by Mrs M
Mum's Word
It drives me nuts when people think that the use of the comma is to take a breath. Drives me nuts.
I heard that recently 'wickid' has been added to the dictionary. I disagree with that. I accept that over time words all of sudden have new meanings; but that should be added as a colloquial meaning to the word, in this case wicked. Not add wickid to the dictionary. Bloody Ali G.
Love & stuff
Mrs M
Comment by Wilson Pon
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Comment by Nomad
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Comment by KylieW
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I'm a bit of a grammar and spelling nazi. I can't stand it when words are spelt wrong and grammar is incorrect. It's one of the few things I'm a bit anal about.
Comment by Morgan Bell
Deep Pencil
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do any of them work?
no, none of them work!
im a heathen! haha
i think as long as language is comprehendable so we can understand the speakers intention without ambiguity then variations on grammar are fine
i love stephen fry!
Comment by Mountain Fog
Infognito
QUOTE ME NO QUOTES!
but I am a gaylard.. cos' I'm fatter..
sorry about the "cos'" Trace!
My personal hate is the use of emoticons as a means of communication, it is fine to leave one at the end of a sentence, however, I have seen a chat site that promotes use of them as communication and it really is bizarre to watch them 'chat'.
Besides the advent of the new "texting" shorthand 'language', the internet chat rooms are also contributing to the variety of expression...(lol)..
Another site I saw, again American, was Afro-American based, I had no idea what they were saying to each other, yet it was 'english', well, extraordinary slang is probably more correct.
cheers
fog
Comment by Hazel Castillo
Working Title
Cirrus Cloud
Parent Adventures
Comment by Clint Emry
Strategy and Solutions
Comment by Tracy
Movies and Life
This has opened the door to so many thoughts hasn't it?
Each time I watch he clip, I see new bits.
I love how emphatic Alan Davies gets, even resorting to a visual example about batteries to prove that ‘none of them work’ is correct. He is not convinced is he? And I don't think he'll change his usage.
Fog and Mich, I'm enjoying your banter, go wild!!
Comment by Tracy
Movies and Life
I agree with you, there should be a law against 'like' over-use. I would be happy to work for that dept.
Tracy
Comment by Tracy
Movies and Life
'Wikid' in the dictionary? Preposterous. What's next? Chillax?
Tracy
Comment by Tracy
Movies and Life
This is going to sound like a lazy response, but I agree with what you said. Language needs to be flexible and used according to context. There is no point in using business style language when having a cuppa with a friend. That would be off-putting (and unfriendly).
And yeppie with texts:
Tracy
Comment by Tracy
Movies and Life
In the meantime, all of them work
Comment by Sara Dobson
Parents Precinct
My Turn
I am a bit behind on myt reading so every one else has probably summed it up nicely. Very Funny post.
I love Stephen Fry
Comment by Mrs M
Mum's Word
Love & stuff
Mrs M
Comment by Tracy
Movies and Life
I'm a fan of blended words and I quite like that one too...
I'm not sure I would like it in the dictionary though. Where would the trend end?
Tracy
Comment by Tracy
Movies and Life
I completely, what was the point of that band's spelling? To highlight their crappiness?
Tracy
Comment by Tracy
Movies and Life
I know what you mean...
Thanks for popping in,
Tracy
Comment by Tracy
Movies and Life
I know what you mean, but how far should we let the variations go? What if a whole new language forms based on twenty-first century blog-speak? Eeek and double eekk!
Byee
Comment by Tracy
Movies and Life
Oh yes, that's a whole area isn't it?
Byee
Comment by Tracy
Movies and Life
Say hi to your Grammar for me, hope she's well.
Tracy
Comment by Tracy
Movies and Life
I agree, learning the foundations at school seems crucial to me.
Tracy
Comment by Tracy
Movies and Life
Yes, using emoticons for an entire sentence does seem lazy...
Tracy
Comment by JohnDoe
Film & TV on DVD
Comment by Tracy
Movies and Life
It's a clever clip isn't it? It says a lot in a short time.
Thanks for popping in,
Tracy
Comment by Miswanderlust
Killer Beats
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Hipnotherapy
Great video! As a former school teacher, the grammar debate is quite the hot topic with me. Love the comments!
Mis
Comment by Tracy
Movies and Life
I would imagine this sort of stuff would drive you nutty if you were a grammer teacher!
Thanks for popping in,
Tracy
Comment by Chris Champion
moneywhither
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Newly Old
I'm with you Cibby, side-by-side in the battle against Generation Ysation of the language. Of course, Michaelie is correct that language must and will change, but the changes that finally get through must overcome the objective and judicious and determined resistance of the old school. And I say to all of yooz, if l8tr and cU have in 200 years replaced current correct spelling, I WILL BE ANNOYED.
Regards,
Chris
Comment by Tracy
Movies and Life
Comment by Kristin Wolgemuth
Poetry Lighthouse
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